Bro-Shooters!

[Belisle]

CoD was, and still is a PC game. But I don't want to turn this into PC vs Console.

Bro shooters = Easy to pick up and play.

Nobody said they aren't fun, and that there isn't a competitive scene. But pro-scenes don't make for a good game. Hell, I watched a Transformers War for Cybertron tournament a few months ago. People will turn any game into a competition, no matter how bad it is.

Battlefield Bad Company is a good example of a good non-bro shooter.

The problem with BF:BC(2) is that there is a learning curve (flying helicopters is hard bros!!) and a non-standard objective. People (Bros) don't want to take the time to learn something that isn't TDM. IMO CTF is one of the best game modes available for any game, but most people don't like it. Capture the objective is slowly catching on again, I credit that to King of the Hill mode in Halo, and then its massive resurgence in TF2. But since CoD is such a "bro shooter" you still get all kinds of people bragging/worried about their K:D on objective maps.

Achievements are also killing games for me. In my experience, most people are more worried about how many kills (see also: Points) they get rather than winning the game.

[Scott Meaney]

Battlefield Bad Company is a good example of a good non-bro shooter.

The problem with BF:BC(2) is that there is a learning curve (flying helicopters is hard bros!!)

Okay but since you brought it up, why the fuck does BC2 make it so god damn hard to pilot a helicopter? 

Almost every other major game that features choppers, also features a straight-forward, streamlined way to pilot a helicopter.  Why does Battlefield insist on their weird-ass system that basically guarantees newer players will either fly around completely missing their target or just crash and burn carrying half their team?  Yes, you can definitely get used to it, but why do you need to? 

We're not talking about a ARMA 2 soldier simulation here. BC2 is a game where the tanks control like the cartoon tanks from every other game.  And you can fix any damage by shooting it with a magic impact hammer.  Why suddenly throw a massive blockade up in front of brand new players?

And don't get me started on that BC2 "medics don't start with basic medic abilities" bullshit.  I don't care that it only takes 30 min to an hour to earn, that's 30 minutes of needlessly delaying my fun.  I'm not an idiot, I know how to heal people.  Just gimme the fucking basic medkit and paddles.  I'll level up to different guns and IMPROVED gear, thank you kindly.

[Belisle]

Okay but since you brought it up, why the fuck does BC2 make it so god damn hard to pilot a helicopter?  

Almost every other major game that features choppers, also features a straight-forward, streamlined way to pilot a helicopter.  Why does Battlefield insist on their weird-ass system that basically guarantees newer players will either fly around completely missing their target or just crash and burn carrying half their team?  Yes, you can definitely get used to it, but why do you need to?  

This might sound a bit ridiculous, at least this is the way it worked in BF2. The helicopters (and airplanes for that matter) function like real aircraft. One stick controls the tail rudder, the other controls the tilt of the blades. It may be hard to control at first, but once you get it down you can do all kinds of magical shit. Doing barrel rolls and back flips in a helicopter allows you to dodge missiles from jets. If the game automatically kept you flying right side up all the time, the helicopter would lose a lot of its impact on the battlefield.

Some of the best in-game pilots for both jets and helis that I've known have been actual pilots IRL (They were of course playing on PC with flightsticks w/ foot pedals though, no 360 controller here). Its like how a real drummer is better at rock band drums than joe blow.

Like I said, BF isn't a bro shooter, because you have to actually learn how to play and not just pick it up and pound natty ice with your bros.

We're not talking about a ARMA 2 soldier simulation here. BC2 is a game where the tanks control like the cartoon tanks from every other game.  And you can fix any damage by shooting it with a magic impact hammer.  Why suddenly throw a massive blockade up in front of brand new players?

I disagree, tanks (actually all vehicles) in BF have always been pretty awesome and realistic IMO. Its when you crank the sensitivity up and can spin your turret around like mad that it gets wonky. Again, this is mostly my PC experience talking, but people aren't playing the game right. If you drive a tank up to the front lines, you're doing it wrong. "Sniping" from across the big ass map (or at least a good distance from your target) allows you to keep that firepower pounding on your enemies while keeping your tank safe from those cocksuckers with RPGs. The only thing that can hurt you at that point is a jet, helicopter, or another tank pro sniping back at you. Find me a real war video where the tanks get within 10 feet of each other before firing a shot as so often happens with bad players in BF. Oh long distance BF2 tank battles with 2 engies behind each tank, how I miss you.

Bullet drop exists in this game for a number of reasons. Your tank shells can hit behind walls with the proper arc and enough distance.

And don't get me started on that BC2 "medics don't start with basic medic abilities" bullshit.  I don't care that it only takes 30 min to an hour to earn, that's 30 minutes of needlessly delaying my fun.  I'm not an idiot, I know how to heal people.  Just gimme the fucking basic medkit and paddles.  I'll level up to different guns and IMPROVED gear, thank you kindly.

Welcome to the world of Achievements and Unlocks that consoles have brought to video games. If you started with that stuff, you would have no incentive to keep playing. You have only yourself to blame for feeding the machine.

IMO unlocks in any game should just not exist. Especially when it has to do with balancing issues E.G. different guns.

Now it may not be 100% realistic, but its as close as it can get while still being fun as fuck. You wouldn't want to start a new game and go through boot camp, "level up" your guy, put skill points into being a medic, and then being restricted to your character instead of being able to switch classes.

Also, if he dies he dies!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wqR0Rd4dbfA&feature=fvwrel

[Mr. Hawkins]

I liked it when the unlocks were pure aesthetic, like golden guns or fancy hats. I don't mind unlockables if they're just to show off. It is odd that as you get better you accelerate away from the lower ranked players due to increasingly better upgrades. It'd be like if two Blankas were playing each other, one level 1 and one level 15. The level 15 has been winning like crazy so he has supers, ultras, and ex moves. How the hell is that supposed to help the level 1 if he has none of those?

[Belisle]

The reasoning is incentive to play. "Woah did you see how much lightning came out of lvl 15 Blanka's ass? I wanna be that guy!"

I had a long conversation with supmeow/pnusbalz about how fucking horrible TF2 is to play now. Good luck finding a Vanialla TF2 server that either has players, or isn't set to 24/7 2fort with 32 players. THE MAP IS TOO FUCKING SMALL FOR THAT PLEASE STOP THIS SHIT INTERNET!

Every server you go in is constant spam for people asking to trade guns they found for different guns (or hats, I now found something I hate more on the internet than cat videos/pictures. Its Hats in TF2). Or people stacking whatever new class has a new weapon out. I just want an 18 man server with a non-custom map rotation and the original (and perfectly fucking balanced) weapon load outs for each class.

Don't get me started on the eyelander, and I literally wanted to cry when supmeow told me about the new katana for the solider.

[Scott Meaney]

 
This might sound a bit ridiculous, at least this is the way it worked in BF2. The helicopters (and airplanes for that matter) function like real aircraft. One stick controls the tail rudder, the other controls the tilt of the blades. It may be hard to control at first, but once you get it down you can do all kinds of magical shit. Doing barrel rolls and back flips in a helicopter allows you to dodge missiles from jets. If the game automatically kept you flying right side up all the time, the helicopter would lose a lot of its impact on the battlefield.

I get what they are going for, but it seems out of place  To me, every aspect of that game is totally pick-up-and-play except the helicopters (and the planes in earlier titles).  I totally get it on PCs where you guys seem to relish that stuff, but for consoles I don't understand the decision.  Outside of sniper bullet drop, everything controls pretty similarly to CoD and it's brethren with slight differences.  Out of all the mechanics, the only thing that decides to play it "real" is the choppers. 

Like I said, BF isn't a bro shooter, because you have to actually learn how to play and not just pick it up and pound natty ice with your bros.

You sorely underestimate my ability to get face-fucked drunk and ram people with a jihad quad.

I disagree, tanks (actually all vehicles) in BF have always been pretty awesome and realistic IMO.

Tanks control exactly like I'd expect a video game tank to control.  Quads too.  I literally knew how to drive them perfectly from the very first time.

And I totally agree with you on how you're supposed to properly USE a tank.  I'm only talking about controlling it. 

Welcome to the world of Achievements and Unlocks that consoles have brought to video games. If you started with that stuff, you would have no incentive to keep playing. You have only yourself to blame for feeding the machine.

IMO unlocks in any game should just not exist. Especially when it has to do with balancing issues E.G. different guns.

I like unlocking stuff though.  I love the feeling of progression.  My only issue comes when it's a basic ability that they lock away from me.  Who does it help to make Medics and Engineers utterly worthless for the first hour or so?  Why is my guy even a medic? Again, it's only a slight detour in the beginning, but it was a pretty sloppy way to handle it.  Just lock off the improved versions of medic skills along with guns and outfits. 
 

Now it may not be 100% realistic, but its as close as it can get while still being fun as fuck. You wouldn't want to start a new game and go through boot camp, "level up" your guy, put skill points into being a medic, and then being restricted to your character instead of being able to switch classes.

I would have no complaints if they started me with a shitty syringe that barely helps and I had to level up from there. 

I really loved BC2, but these two issues just bug the hell out of me.

[Belisle]

I see what you mean. I just don't want them to limit the PC game experience to have a cross-platform game.

I still think there is a lot more to learn in the BF series than any CoD game. For me that adds a ton of value. I could work for months mastering tank skillz and still be worthless in a helicopter. This creates a good team dynamic and can lead to some awesome coordination when played with competent people.

Although at the same time, it sucks when you have everyone wanting the helicopter bad enough to C4 it when they don't get in first.

The achievement/unlock reward era that we're in just plain bugs me. It would be one thing if it taught people how to play better. E.G. Defend a flag with C4, but in most cases its just "You r winnar hahaha!! You r winnar hahaha!!"